You are listening to Relationships Shouldn't Hurt, a podcast brought to you by Central Bedfordshire Council. During this series, you'll be able to hear us talk all things domestic abuse and raise awareness of the support available to those affected.
Hi, my name is Jayne, I'm from Central Bedfordshire Council, and I'm part of the Domestic Abuse team as one of the Domestic Abuse Specialist Officers. This episode is going to concentrate on 16 Days of Action and talk about the fact that domestic abuse is everybody's business. What we hope to achieve by this podcast is to raise further awareness of domestic abuse and the signs of unhealthy relationships. Today I'm joined by Jenny who's from Victim Support, Lisa who's from Luton Borough Council, and Martyn who's from Talk for Men. Martyn, could you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do in the domestic abuse arena?
Martyn
Yes, so my role at the minute is I am a facilitator of the Talk:4M or Talk for Men Programme, which is a pan Bedfordshire male victims of domestic abuse service. The idea is that we’re a group that provides support for men who have experienced domestic abuse and make sure that it's done in a safe and a therapeutic environment. We aim to support local male victims living in Bedford Borough area, Central Bedfordshire or Luton. And the idea of it is that it's developed from a programme that was in existence as part of the Early Childhood Partnership, and it's being developed and adapted to look at that element of male victims and the relationship they've had.
Jayne
Excellent. Thank you very much, a much-needed service. Jenny, can you introduce yourself, please, and tell us a little bit about your part in 16 Days of Action and what that actually is and how it impacts our residents in Central Bedfordshire and Bedfordshire?
Jenny
Yes, so I'm Jenny and I work for Victim Support in Bedfordshire. I work alongside the specialist service for high-risk victims of domestic abuse. But we also now support those through all levels of domestic abuse in one way or another. And so yes, every year there is a campaign called the 16 Days of Action to End Gender Violence. It's an international campaign, and the idea is that it challenges abuse and violence, especially that against women and girls. So it runs every year from the 25th of November to the 10th of December. So the 25th of November is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women and Girls, and the 10th of December is Human Rights Day. So I guess that's why it's sort of pitched across those 16 Days. It started all the way back in 1991 by the Women's Global Leadership Institute, and it's been running ever since, with countries across the world all taking part in lots of different stuff. Every year there's a theme, and this year's theme is from awareness to accountability. And hopefully some people will know that there's been a new Domestic Abuse Act introduced this year back in April. So it seemed like quite a nice link, if you like, to the theme from awareness to accountability. Our local theme is about domestic abuse is everybody's business. That new Act actually asks local authorities to get a little bit more involved and gives them new powers and new responsibilities as well. So it's all coming together this year, and we hope to really raise awareness of gender violence, violence against women and girls, of course, domestic abuse, which is another form of violence against women and girls. And we know that it can affect anybody, man, woman, child. So, yeah, we hope that everybody will get involved and it should be a good one this year.
Jayne
Excellent. Thank you very much for that, Jenny. Lisa, can you introduce yourself to us, please?
Lisa
Certainly. Hello, everybody. My name is Lisa Baker, and I am the Strategic Manager for domestic abuse across Luton. I've only been in post a couple of months, so I'm quite new to role. But I am a trauma-based psychotherapist and have worked extensively with domestic abuse victims, both adults and children. So I have a lot of experience in that area. My role is to oversee and work together with Bedford Borough and Central Bedfordshire to ensure that we have good domestic abuse services for victims and perpetrators of domestic abuse across the whole of the county.
Jayne
So if we have a little think about our friends and our family and our colleagues, what should we be looking out for? And how would we respond to those signs of an unhealthy relationship?
Lisa
Thanks, Jayne. I think that one of the most important things is to point out that a lot of people think domestic abuse is just physical abuse, when it really isn't, physical abuse is part of it, but we have extensive different areas. We have things like bullying, controlling and threatening behaviour with such things as constantly being accused of you having an affair, you're cheating on them and also very often abuse is turned against the victim, so, if you didn't push my buttons, I wouldn't do this. And it's your fault because you did this and that's why I was aggressive. So it's very much victim blaming. It's about being criticised all the time and put down and your self-esteem really takes a hit when you're in a domestic abuse situation. You may be told what to wear, how to dress and how to act. There can be threats, threats of violence, threats of murder, which we know is a prolific thing in this country, so they can be threats of violence against you so that you're forever fearful and walking on eggshells, a lot of survivors have spoken about before. There's another perspective is not always physical violence, it could be aggression, as in throwing things, smashing objects, smashing your phone, punching a wall. These are all types of abuse and inappropriate behaviour in relationships and the fact that you're constantly being yelled at and put down and spoke to in a derogatory manner constantly. So that's one aspect of it. I'll go on to financial abuse, where your money, you might be given an allowance and your money is controlled. Your money might be given to the perpetrator, and they may actually cut you off financially. Also, other things, like cutting off from family and friends. They may keep tabs on you wherever you go. So you might have an app on the phone or might be constantly phoning you and asking you to video where you are to prove where you are, and you will have to ask if you see family and friends. In a normal relationship, that's not something that happens, you know, you would just say I'm going to see my mum or I'm going to see my friend. In domestic abuse you may have to ask permission, and another one is like embarrassing you in front of your friends and family, so you sometimes don't want to be in social situations, because you're being put down all the time and made to feel inadequate. So those are some of the things that are not the physical, but there are also, it does lead to physical and physical violence is part of domestic abuse. But it's not all, you can have a lot of other stuff and not ever have physical, because the fear will mean that you do not need to actually have anyone being physical towards you.
Jayne
Thank you so much for that Lisa. That’s really terrifying there that you've spoken not only about the physical signs, and historically it was domestic violence, we heard that term. But now we use domestic abuse because we are experiencing those invisible signs as well. And I think if we're looking at friends, family and colleagues, we need to be aware of those patterns that are building where there's the potential for the invisible abuse. Jenny, is there anything you'd like to add to that at all in your experience?
Jenny
Well, I suppose for me, I think Lisa’s given us a really good run down, a really good description, some of the things to look out for in your friends and family. And I suppose for the big overarching things are that sort of feeling of isolation, I suppose, being isolated from your usual support network, which could be friends, family, could be work of course, for many people going to work is their safe place. If we were in an unhealthy or abusive relationship and, of course, as we all know, we're working from home today we're all speaking on this podcast from home. If we're stuck at home with our perpetrator, with the person who's controlling us, that person who is jealous, controlling, intimidating, threatening or, perfectly charming to everybody else, but not actually perfectly charming to us. Everybody else might think that they are absolutely wonderful, how lucky we are to have that person in our lives. But actually it's what happens, it's often said, behind closed doors, but it is what happens behind closed doors, domestic abuse, unhealthy control that happens doesn't happen all at once, as Lisa said it's not just physical, it's not just violence. It generally starts off with controlling behaviours. Some of those things that Lisa mentioned, the monitoring, the questioning, the threatening, the isolating. It starts off with those things, and it can, before you realise it you're standing up to your neck in control, if you like. And at that stage, you've been living with that for however long you've been living with it for, months, years, it makes you feel that your self-esteem is really taking a battering, your self-confidence has taken a battering. You feel that you might not be believed. You don't know who to speak to. You are fearful of the consequences. If you can find somebody to reach out to help. It's just it's such a difficult time, and it is so prevalent. It is so common. You can't tell from just looking at somebody that they are a victim of unhealthy control or domestic abuse. We know that it happens to men, to women, we know that it happens to children as well, you know, they obviously soak up that experience, children are like little sponges, aren't they? Mum and Dad might be arguing. Mum and Dad might be really going through a difficult relationship, and they might think that because that happens when the children are in bed, that the children aren't aware of it. But we know that it has an effect on any child who is living in that household. I mean, it's harmful and it's incredibly common. The stats that have been around for as long as I've been doing this job, which is about eight years now, are that one in four women and one in six men experience domestic abuse during their lifetime. That's a hell of a lot of people. And it also means that we all know somebody who is experiencing domestic abuse. Even if we don't know that we know them, if you see what I mean.
Jayne
I think that's really relevant Jenny and you know children, you mentioned about adults and their safe space being at work, and for children it might be that their safe space is at school. So you know, we say to any of you listening to this if you've got any doubts about adults and then you look at children, you've got children that are really eager to get into school and added with other bits and pieces that go together with your concerns, that might be a reason, because that's their safe space. Lisa, did you want to expand at all on what we've just been talking about?
Lisa
Yes, please. I just wanted to say that very often people say, why don't these women just leave? Why don't these men just leave? And I think that's a really important point to put across because this behaviour doesn't happen straight away. They don't meet them the first day and then they're physically violent or abusive. This doesn't happen. They are very, very good at manipulation. They will be the perfect type of person at the beginning of the relationship and then for the rest of the relationship the survivor is desperately trying to get back to the relationship they had in the beginning, so I just want to point out that this doesn't happen overnight. This is a gradual process, and, like Jenny said, these people are very, very good at making other people think that they are great people, they're good fun and they're really good members of the community, and what happens behind closed doors it's so vaguely different to that.
Jayne
So it's like wearing a mask, then, isn't it? You know, you've got the mask going out to face the world, and the mask comes off behind closed doors and that's a different story. And, you know, as you both said it makes the victims and survivors accounts and seeking out for help, sometimes difficult to understand if that's how a perpetrator displays themselves.
Martyn
Yeah, for me, I was just kind of going back to it and looking at it in the term when we start to use around, if you look at the initial stages of the word unhealthy relationship, it's there but it's about how do people know that that's unhealthy? How do people know that they’re in that unhealthy place? So it's a strange one, we'll talk about it say in programmes, we won't talk about gut feelings and things like that, but sometimes people just know that it's not right, or it doesn't feel right. But where do they then get that support that's going to back them up, to have that feeling, to allow you to have that feeling. But I also think, and we'll talk about in a sense, maybe, from a male perspective when if we go down, sometimes they're old-fashioned terms around being henpecked or under the thumb or even you may have people saying “well, we know who wears the trousers in that relationship”. Quite throwaway comments maybe, easily led comments, that people may historically use. But does that then start to look at well is that unhealthy, actually, that I don't have a choice? I don't have opinion. I don't have anything like that. But I think what we tend to see and across, I guess, maybe a lot of these kind of relationship is actually is there someone there to identify with that victim that that is unhealthy? Is there someone to point out “do you know what? That doesn't feel right?” As an outsider, as a friend, a family member, as someone else who's not in the thick of it, because when you're in the thick of it, how do you know it's unhealthy? Jenny, you picked up the point around children and how they pick up everything as well. So if we historically have that person who’s maybe been in a family environment where there may have been parental conflict, where there may have been unhealthy relationships. How do they know differently? And sometimes that's the element there, isn't it? That maybe, actually, and I know we're probably going to talk about how do we do that, how do we reach a bigger audience to educate, inform and give them the knowledge? But I think right at beginning is that someone identifying, actually, do we know that it's unhealthy? Do other people know that it's unhealthy? And therefore, I guess the question is for, we talked about, friends, family or colleagues is how do you then approach that? Because that's a skill in itself and no doubt we'll cover that as we go on. But yeah, I think it's that initial what is unhealthy, what's not. And there's a thing with that as well I always think it's nice to look at.
Jayne
Definitely and as you say, it's an escalation there. Martyn leading on from what you're actually saying there it becomes a new normal, doesn't it? You know, you start a relationship, it's quite an organic and as you go on, the abuse becomes the new normal, and it kind of erodes you away, and because it happens really gradually you probably don't realise that it's your new normal that isn't particularly healthy.
Martyn
Yeah, I think one of the things is really interesting, I guess what we try and work out and I guess try to maybe work with maybe victims of general friends and family as well as the system we might use is something called Notice, Check, Share. Where you notice you can check in and then, actually, where am I now sharing this information? And I guess it's a simplistic, safeguarding term in a way, isn't it? We notice, we check, we share. Actually, that's maybe an everyday way of looking at it. Do I notice? Am I checking in? And that could be colleagues, that could be friends, that could be anyone. And if so, where do I now share that? I guess that's what we're doing at the moment, as I say one in four women, one in six men, we're going to come across someone and actually do we notice it? Do we see it? Do we see the everyday stuff and therefore do we check in? Do we actually say what we see? Not are you okay or how you doing? But do we check what we see? But yeah, I do think that's important.
Jenny
It's really good Martyn actually, I was going to going to jump in there and just say one of the things that we talk about with professionals as well ,so colleagues, you know, people involved in providing support is that importance of talking to somebody, that importance of noticing and the idea of routine inquiry, you know, it's one of the one of the things you can do for free is just ask how somebody is. Ask what their day’s like. Ask if everything is OK and sort of follow up on that. We really encourage professionals to make sure that they ask about unhealthy relationships, domestic abuse, whatever we want to call it. Ask people about that, give them permission to talk to you about what is happening, how they are feeling, and that, I think, that sits really nicely along that sort of notice, check and share. You know, we said at the beginning of the podcast, domestic abuse is everybody's business, and it is everybody's business. It affects us all. It costs the country an absolute fortune to tackle. And there is this generational, sort of, cycle of abuse. And as you alluded to Martyn, if children see that kind of unhealthy behaviours in their home, they grow up with those. How do they know that that is not a healthy relationship? How do they know that that is not the way to treat somebody? Or in fact, how do they know that that's not how they should be treated themselves as they grow up? So I think for me it really is, you know, early intervention and prevention are words that are bandied about a lot, but it really is about early intervention and prevention. It's getting them young and teaching them about, you know, those really important values of respect and honesty and trust and communication. So it just can't be undervalued, I suppose, the efforts that are made in schools and with the services that provide support to children and mums and dads, you know, that can’t be undervalued.
Jayne
Jenny, you've taken us really nicely into healthy relationships and what a healthy relationship can look like. Did you want to carry on with that theme for us Jenny.
Jenny
I mean, obviously everybody probably has their own ideas of what a healthy relationship is, and I mentioned a few of them, and they kind of translate, and you can apply them in different ways. But essentially, it's things like being honest, trusting each other, allowing for some independence as well, so you're not completely reliant on that other person. Give and take, being supportive of each other's efforts and each other's thoughts and feelings, respecting each other. Lisa mentioned accusations of cheating and jealous and controlling behaviours. There is no place for jealousy, for instance, in a healthy relationship. So we want honesty. We want trust. We want, and these sound a bit trite, but this is what a healthy relationship is. It's about being able to talk about what your problems are and what concerns you, maybe what you're sensitive about. Maybe, you know, get out some of your baggage and talk about that and not have that used against you at a later date or thrown back in your face in an argument. It’s about people sharing values so that you're not at odds with each other constantly arguing about “no, no, no, we don't want these people to do this” or I don't want my mum to do this, I don't want my dad to do that, I don't want to go to your family for Christmas, and whatever it is. It's about sort of shared values bringing up children together, if you've got children. It's being able to talk to each other without the fear of any unpleasant or negative consequences. And it's about your partner, or your family member, because the kind of relationships we talk about for domestic abuse is not just intimate partners, not just husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, etc. Or girlfriend, girlfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend. It is family members as well. So it's about them being reliable as well and trustworthy. It's all that good stuff. It's all the good stuff I think that we all know on one level, we've all seen it on one level, hopefully we've had examples in our life when we were growing up, hopefully we had protective factors, we had caregivers that cared and that made us feel safe, and that made us feel worth it and valued. If that is missing, then obviously that's where some real issues can start to grow from an early age. But yeah, I mean, I suppose that's it really. There's probably six or seven basic signs of a healthy relationship, and I think those are the ones that we were talking about – equality, trust, honesty, mutual respect, communication, with independence as well. I do think it's about valuing your independence as well. Shouldn't be completely reliant on one person in that relationship, that can put an unbearable pressure onto a relationship as well.
Jayne
So a real sense of nurturing and being a partnership. I had the privilege last week of going out and facing an audience of young people, so I did a presentation on healthy relationships for Central Bedfordshire's Youth Parliament and we did an exercise on what a healthy relationship looks like. And I'm really proud to say that 14- to 18-year-olds who had asked to learn about domestic abuse as part of their Youth Parliament, their three things were trust, integrity and communication. I think, you know, those values in those young people hopefully will play out in their relationships and their future relationships. Martyn, you gave us some really good pointers earlier around unhealthy relationships and domestic abuse. Is there anything you want to add from a healthy relationship point of view?
Martyn
Kind of echoing a lot of what Jenny mentioned there. I think a lot of it is, we talk about sometimes power imbalances when we maybe look into parental conflict in domestic abuse, domestic violence and actually the term that we, when we talk about healthy relationships and whether that be within partners or what kind of family dynamic again, Jenny, you mentioned that as well, is we always kind of fall into the path when we talk about ego states and being on the I'm OK, you're OK. So being on an even keel that there is no kind of hierarchy, there's no parent to child unbalances. I'm OK, you're OK, we're both on the same balance and we both have opinion. We both have values and models, that might be different but respected, and that's something we will always look at. And I think the other thing is, we talked about respect for each other's independence, which I think is true, and making sure that then people can make the right decisions and make their own decisions, but without fear, the fear of retaliation, without fear of maybe some retribution that they have the capacity to do so and want to do so without that possibly hanging over them. And I think that's really important when we talk about the healthy relationships, that is fantastic where young people are saying about that, you know what communication and trust, integrity, that's what we want to see and we want that to continue. But we want to also know that do you know what? You can make a choice. You can have a choice and it won't be taken away from you. Your liberty won’t be taken away.
Jenny
It’s having a choice isn’t it? You said it before Martyn. It's really important to know that you have a choice, you can choose, and if you feel you can't choose, then it's about questioning why you feel you can't choose. Are you scared of something happening? Should you make a choice that your partner or your family member doesn't agree with? So, you know, for me, quite a lot of it is around, as you say, Martyn about choice, having that choice, to choose for yourself. What happens in your relationship.
Jayne
Being authentic, being an individual and taking the options you want to take, your choices, your options, but supported by the other person that's in a relationship with you. And that's another thing that came out last week with the Youth Parliament was about being individuals and not being in each other's pockets. So another healthy message from those young people. So we spoke earlier about making domestic abuse everybody's business, how do we go about that? And what do we do in order to make sure that we are highlighting that everybody should be made aware of domestic abuse? Martyn.
Martyn
So again, I think, we're in a fortunate position, I guess from what can we do? We kind of live and breathe a lot of this every day. We're trained, the people we work with are trained and the staff we manage are trained and so in one sense, we're ahead of the game, which is great. I think what we need to start looking at and what I think we need to do and is how can you take this to the broader masses? We started to look at actually working with businesses, walking with your bigger, larger organisations and actually going in and delivering awareness sessions, knowledge sessions within those businesses, within those large groups of employers, to go do you know what, this is part of your business. Again, an employer that’s got thousands of members of staff, then do the maths, what number? They're going to be looking at 40, 50, 60 people who are in those situations, so that's really important. So, I guess it's that, it's taking it to a different audience is something that we feel is really, really important. And as a starting point for that, I think you've mentioned as well one of the things again that's been starting to grow at ECP as well is the work with young people. So again, a lot of, and this is kind of combining services that we deliver, but we also have an Onyx service, which does sexual violence. But what they started to do as well, they've started now working within schools within Bedford, around that what's a healthy relationship? What does that look like? And everything else. So again, what we're starting to do is we’re trying to build it from the ground up so these young people are armed with the information of that's not right or that's unhealthy. So what we're trying to do is draw out, and we shouldn't be living and working in a knee jerk reaction kind of world. We do, because we're working in it and we're in the trenches. But what we need to do is go, do you know what this is for everyone. You should be aware of it. We don't want you to read about it in the paper, we don't want you to read about what's happened. We want you to know what's going on and it's not a bad thing, I think with the 16 Days of Action is a brilliant thing as well, because what we're trying to do is we're trying to say to everyone – this is going on, let's publicise this, let's get it out there. Let people know locally that this is happening, and I think what we start to do, and I guess I'm going from maybe 20 years ago, I think it was very much a taboo subject, whereas now we're at a point where'd you know what people are aware, people talk. So let's have the healthy talks about it, let's do something about it, let's be proactive and let’s get the ball rolling so it does become everyone's business. It doesn't mean everyone has to act upon it, because that's individuals and how safe they feel when they may see something or hear something. But if we go back to that first conversation, we said about the unhealthy relationship, if we're all aware of that and that friend says something to you or that you see something happening within your family group or your friendship group and you go, I've been trained on that, I did this at work, or I did this or I've had this information given to me, however that's given to me, I might be able to support that person. And if you think of it if that one person could support another one person, are they not doing a fantastic job? You know, I mean, it's one less person, so yeah, I think that's what it's about for me, and I think it's really important that we start to do that. Obviously I've mentioned ECP, I should mention to everyone that it's Early Childhood Partnership. So we’re based in Bedford. Obviously, that we cover all tri boroughs. I'm sure no doubt I'll be talking about more about what we do. But yeah, I think that's what it’s about, it is everyone's business and we can bang on about it. But I think it's how we, be clever, think outside the box in a way to get more people aware of it. And I think it's fantastic, just we're doing stuff.
Jayne
Thank you very much, Martyn. Lisa, did you want to expand on that?
Lisa
Yes, I just wanted to actually echo some of the things Martyn was saying. We have very similar schemes going on in Luton as well, working with business and working in education, and I do think that's where a lot of the issues lie, is education, because a lot of young people maybe haven't witnessed a healthy relationship with their parents, so they're not aware of what it is. And it's something that's not regularly taught in schools, which I really believe it should be. And I think also it's about society, very often we allow things to go by, like sexist jokes and men putting women down in front of groups and things like that, when really we as a community and as human beings should be more aware of what we say and do to each other. If we see someone being uncomfortable by the way someone is speaking about them or putting them down, then perhaps we should actually stand up and say that. We should stop fitting into stereotypes about men and women roles in the home and things like that, because women don't have to do all the housework and things like that anymore because they work full time. So you know there needs to be a gender balance as well, and I think what we do as a society if we want to change things, we need to change that in the way we advertise things, like adverts on TV are very, very sort of like aimed at women standing in the kitchen and the man sitting down and things like that. So it's about our society and how we really need to change our society and the way in which we treat women and children and, you know, and men because men actually receive the same sort of abuse from other women.
Jenny
I think you're right, Lisa, but as you say, you need to change societies. But that starts, doesn't it, with us changing ourselves, sort of challenging ourselves, challenging our behaviours and making sure that we're not kind of, you know, we're not feeding into it, not continuing lazy behaviours. And it's like Martyn, you were going on about henpecked and, you know, under the thumb and she wears the trousers and stuff like that. We all kind of rely on those, those ideas don't we, those little themes that we've all grown up with, and it's about challenging ourselves to stop relying on those as an excuse or as a reason, or as an explanation because they're not, are they? That doesn't excuse, we say this all the time in Victim Support, there is no excuse for abuse. And there isn't an excuse. It doesn't matter what somebody has told you, what somebody has said to you. If they are abusing you, if they are harming you, if you're in a toxic relationship and you are the victim of that, so you are the one being harmed, there is no excuse for that behaviour, you do not deserve it, it isn't your fault. The fault lies with the perpetrator, the person who is doing the harming, always. And it doesn't matter what that person has told you, they're liars, in the simplest format, they’re liars, they're lying to get what they want. They're lying to control you. If you are the victim, they're lying to control you.
Martyn
Yeah, so what we've seen, and I suppose I want to say it's new, but it's not, is having male victims. People are still shocked. And the one thing, we’re still doing it and we're trying to do a lot more of, is educating professional bodies on that point around please listen to males, please listen to male victims. The stories that, and again we've done a lot of work locally, which has been amazing with local Police forces and the guys have been fantastic in the response to how they've stepped up. And it's been a few years, because we've been doing it for a few years and we're going to constantly work with it. But it is just that thing around if there is a report, if there is someone who turns up at a Police station, if there is someone who comes up at family support, say the Children’s Centre or wherever it may be. Just listen, take them at face value, take it what they say is true and work with that. And we have seen a change, and I can go back to when I first started doing this type of work, we set up a group about four years ago. We’ve seen a huge shift, and I guess for that, then we're starting to see that actually it is more and more people's business and people are taking more notice. People are noticing and that's brilliant and people are listening, and I think that for any victim that's maybe one of the biggest things. Someone will listen to me. Someone will take the time out and not condescend me, not question what's going on, not belittle, whether you're a male or a female victim, just someone will listen to me and I think we've seen a big shift in that and that's really important, especially with the last 18 months and the increase we've seen in domestic violence and over the Covid period and all the stuff that's going on as well. So yeah, so it's good, it's getting there, it's working. I think there's still a lot more that we can do and we'll be doing this forever and ever and ever, because it's historically it's not going to go away. We're just putting it in the spotlight, we’re just pushing out there. We're making it something that we can talk about, something that we can push in the day-to-day agenda of people as well, make people aware of it and it's going to be something that we are going to get it right. It may take more longer, longer, but it will get there. And that's the great thing that we're starting to see.
Jenny
I think one of the really important things that we need to do is that we need to empower the victims to, not just the victims but the victims as well, to challenge the perpetrators, challenge them safely but to challenge the perpetrators behaviours. Nobody deserves abuse. There is no excuse for it. So we really need to encourage our young people to know their worth, to stand up for themselves, to not accept unhealthy behaviours in their relationships to turn their back on that, to say no, you know. So it's about empowering victims and challenging perpetrators for me and really to go back to something you said there, Martyn, about you know it can happen to anybody, it is everybody's business. It literally can happen to anybody. Man, woman, child, you know, anybody can be affected. And I know that people listening to this won't believe me, but it really can happen to anybody. It sneaks up on you. I read in a book somewhere that coercive control is like mould. It grows like mould, and it's really difficult to get rid of once it has grown in the relationship because you just don't know how to tackle it. You don't know how to step outside it, but there is so much support. Martyn has been talking about the Early Childhood Partnership, they do great work, and actually across Bedfordshire there are so many services out there that just have that non-judgmental, they will listen to you, they will hear you. We have got so much support out there. There is support for everybody, no matter what their choices are, no matter what they want to do next. Actually, Martyn alluded to this as well, not everybody wants to leave their relationship, not everybody can leave their relationship, but you can still make that relationship safer. There is support to make that relationship safer so that it's safer for you, safer for the victims, safer for their children. And there is help for perpetrators as well of course, there's the Bridge Project, which is another Early Childhood Partnership kind of thing, but also there's a national phone line. If you don't want to go local, then there's a national phone line called Respect, where you can talk to somebody if you're worried about your behaviours and the behaviours that you are perpetrating, if you are causing harm to your nearest and dearest, then you can get support. Doesn't matter what stage you're at, what age you're at, what your abilities, your background, your circumstances, your language, doesn't matter. There is support for you somewhere in Bedfordshire, we’re so fortunate to have so many great services.
Jayne
Absolutely. And you know, we all advocate those services and signpost people very regular. And I think one of the other things that’s a bit of a misconception is around how to get support for domestic abuse. I think historically, people believed that they could only go to the Police, which may cause a real fracture in a relationship. But that isn't the only route to get support within a domestic abuse situation, as we've heard from Jenny and Martyn, we've heard about national groups. At the end we'll give you some more information about where you can go, and it's about accessing support safely. So if you're looking online that you're not leaving a footprint, etc. But we will come on to that at the end of our podcast today. I'd like to think we've all used the term victim, survivor and perpetrator. So I just wanted to break those down a little bit and just for our listeners, talk about what those terms mean. Jenny, do you want to start us off with that? Victim, survivor, perpetrator.
Jenny
I think I mentioned a little while ago, but basically a perpetrator, when we talk about the perpetrator, we talk about the person who is causing the harm. The person who is behaving with extreme jealousy, in a controlling manner, the one who is making the other party involved, if you like, and that other party is the victim or the survivor. It depends which stage you're at, I suppose, really, if it's happening to you right now, actually people don't like to think of themselves as victims and to be fair, I completely get that. If you are going through domestic abuse at the moment, you are a survivor. You have survived this relationship up until this point. If you manage to end that relationship, then you will have survived that relationship as it ended. Doesn't necessarily mean that the abuse will end, of course, because the perpetrator is the only person who could stop behaving in a controlling fashion, in an abusive fashion. They are the only person who can stop their behaviour, if you like. So there is post separation abuse, and we all know about that, and it's going back to what Lisa said I suppose, it's not an easy thing to leave a relationship. Professionals ask that question, many people ask that question in the heads all the time – why don't they just leave, whoever the they is whether it's a man or a woman, but yes, the perpetrator is the one acting in a harmful way, is the perpetrator of the abuse, and the victim is the person to whom that abuse is being targeted or directed at. So that's it, really, I suppose.
Jayne
Yeah, and we talk about the just leave and the end of the relationship and as professionals we’re really acutely aware that that actually heightens the risk for victims and survivors. The end of the relationship can be seen by family and friends as thank goodness this is now over. But actually, we have to be very careful that for around 3 to 4 weeks, I believe the stats say to us, that that's a heightened risk, so we're aware of that. How do we challenge people that harm? Martyn would you like to lead on that one?
Martyn
We have those, we're going to see the perpetrators who have what we may class as narcissistic behaviours who are regularly doing it. But there is occasion when you do come across the relationships where they may not recognise their behaviour as territorial or that of a perpetrator. They may not recognise that, actually, my behaviour is creating a victim. Now, that's for a number of reasons we've talked about, environmental circumstances, historic circumstances, familiar circumstances, where they may have grown up in. But that that does happen. That doesn't mean it's right. Let's be honest, that's what's first and foremost it doesn't mean it's right that they do, but we can take a little bit of a step with that. Sometimes that's what we need to work with. And like you say, I think the idea of for a perpetrator, or for a victim maybe or survivor, is that discovery is the first step to recovery isn't it? That's what we're looking at, we’re looking at that momentum and how we shift that as well and that really is important. I think when obviously then we are looking at challenge, challenging perpetrators behaviour is difficult and what I've seen in my history of working in the world I do work, and you kind of have to have a confident practitioner, a confident professional who can question those behaviours. Now it doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, we should question the behaviours, but again, it's a skill set. It's something that you really need to be aware of how to do it, because we talked about when there's a maybe the survivor does walk away from that relationship and how delicate that could be, and fragile that could be with that 3 to 4 weeks. But we also know if we take a relationship where they’re in the household, that disruption can actually possibly lead to escalation. Now in that disruption and the questioning of the behaviours of that perpetrator, actually, how does that work, then does the perpetrator ramp those behaviours up? Do they start to be more manipulative and coercive? So again, it is delicate. I always say, around something we always offer, we always have done, is done a little bit of training and knowledge-based work around working with perpetrators. You need to be a trained person, a trained, skilful person to do that. So it's something that people just really need to be aware of.
Jenny
I was going to say one, I think, really important message, and I appreciate we're possibly getting to the end of this podcast. But one really important message to leave everybody with is there are, as Martyn said, there are ways to challenge somebody's behaviour in a relationship and depending upon what level you're at there are ways of doing that safely. One thing, though, that people should never do is threaten to leave without seeking some advice around doing that safely, that's like a top tip if you like. Don't threaten to leave. Don't lose your temper. Don't start throwing things in the face of somebody who is who is a controller, who has shown that they don't respect, they don't trust, and they're prepared to treat you badly. They're prepared to harm you, you know, to get what they want. So it's an incredibly risky time in a relationship when somebody decides to separate, I mentioned post separation abuse and you mentioned a lot of three or four weeks of contact. Obviously, you end a relationship, it's a difficult time. It can be a sensitive time. People are allowed to call you and say, did you mean it? Let's get back together. Let's give it another try. They're allowed to do that. That's OK, but if they keep doing that, if they pursue you beyond a couple of, you know 2, 3, 4 weeks, whatever it is, then actually we might be talking about something called stalking taking place, which is very much unwanted, obsessive, fixated behaviour. And that's another, that's another key risk area, if you like in domestic abuse, if somebody is not prepared to take no for an answer, whatever situation, whether that’s sexual abuse, whether that's emotional abuse, financial abuse, physical abuse or whether you're trying to separate or end the relationship, they won't take no for an answer. Then that really is a very clear indicator that they are controlling personality, that what you are dealing with is in fact not just an unhealthy relationship but perhaps it's an abusive relationship. And conceivably, there could well be harm perpetrated against you, after the relationship is over. So those kind of things really need to be, I would encourage anybody to get advice if they think that their relationship is unhealthy, if anything that we've talked about today has kind of rang a bell or made them think, hold on a second, then there's loads of support out there, and I know we're going to talk about where there are some resources in a little bit. But there's only one website in Bedfordshire that you want to, you know, if you've only got time to look at one website in Bedfordshire then I would go to the Bedfordshire Domestic Abuse Partnership website, and it's got links to all the services we've mentioned today. It's got a lovely link to Martyn’s ECP and it's got links to all the other you know, the Luton All Women's Centre, the Women's Aid, Stepping Stones, Bedford Women's Centre, all the various services, of which there are many, and national services as well. And lots of information for whether you’re professional, whether you're an interested family member or friend of somebody, lots of information about the types, the forms of domestic abuse and hints and tips and early warning signs, and all that kind of stuff. So if you can only find time to go to one website that I would encourage everybody to go to the Bedfordshire Domestic Abuse Partnership website.
Jayne
Thank you very much for that, Jenny and as I mentioned earlier, that is a website where you can go online and not leave a footprint trace. So if you feel that somebody is looking into your phone, your computer and keeping an eye on your footprint, you can do that safely. Just so we can wrap up and for our listeners today, I think we need to talk about some safety planning advice, as a kind of a close for our session. Lisa, would you like to lead us in just talking about your experiences around safety planning please?
Lisa
Absolutely. And I know we've all mentioned the three or four weeks, and the reason we mentioned the three or four weeks is because that's when it's more likely for somebody to be killed. And with the high rates of domestic abuse murders in this country, I think we really need to think about safely leaving this relationship. Murder is the ultimate end to domestic abuse and murder/suicide also are things that happen because it is the victim has decided to leave the perpetrator. So what I would say is the most important thing is to have a really good plan. If you know you're in that situation, you might want to think about how you would respond in certain such situations and options that might be available for you. It's good to have an emergency telephone number, whether it's the local Women's Aid refuge, it's another organisation or even the Police you know, to have a number that you can call in an emergency. Also, if you have children, it's a very good thing to teach your children to call 999 if anything's happening and if they feel unsafe. Are there any neighbours that you can trust that you could leave, maybe perhaps an overnight bag with? You know that if you have to flee quickly, with things for yourself and the children emergency things, you know, and even things like an escape plan or a rescue plan, are there safer rooms in your house that you can hide into or you can flee to so that you can get help. If you feel that your partner is about to, like attack you to stay at a lower rise part of the house and try to keep the partner the other side of the door, so you can get out the door if you need to, and to be prepared to leave the house in an emergency. And these are things that sound like quite extreme, but these are things that are really important to keep yourself safe. And what I would also say is before this happens, like Jenny says, speak to somebody that works in the field. You don't have to go to the Police, if you don't feel that to do that, you can go to another agency, and they will help you with this and plan this and my advice would be do not just leave. Make sure that you have a plan in place, and you have somewhere to go that's not a mutual friend, because very often perpetrators are able to influence the friends and family that you are the problem and not them. And they will immediately phone the perpetrator and things like that and try to get you back together. So it's really, really being aware of the safe places to go and making a plan, not just leaving or not just threatening to leave, because that can put you at more risk.
Jenny
That's great, Lisa. That's really useful, and I think whilst we're talking about safety planning, it's also worth mentioning that Women's Aid have got a really useful website with advice about making a safety plan. And I know it's the Women's Aid website, but it, you know it works, whoever you are. Man, woman, child, you know it gives you lots of hints and tips, gives you sort of ideas for what to put in that emergency bag that Lisa was talking about. So go online and have a look if it's safe to do so. There are some really great apps out there that you can download to mobile phone, the Bright Sky app that's free to download, and it provides advice and information for anyone experiencing domestic abuse. You've got the Holly Guard app again, another mobile app that is free to download and that acts as a sort of a personal safety plan. It allows you to share your location, record evidence, make emergency contact and loads more stuff. It's also worth mentioning Clare's Law, which is basically the domestic violence disclosure scheme. It allows you or a concerned person to ask the Police about information they hold on an individual with a history of abusive or violent behaviour, and it actually allows the Police to tell somebody about, perhaps, their partners or family members history of violence, and it gives you the right to ask. So the right to ask and the right to be told. And you can find information about Clare’s Law requests on the Police website and you can make an online request. So it's really worth mentioning that, if you're not certain about a partner, a new partner, maybe then make an online request and find out if there is any history that you need to be worried about that could cause you harm. And it would be very remiss of me to not mention the Victim Support website, which has also got a load of information for anybody going through unhealthy relationships or in fact, affected by any kind of crime. And we also have a space called My Support Space, which has got lots of interactive guides that you can do online at any time of the day or night. And then if you need to call anybody, anytime of the day or night, there are loads of phone numbers out there. One of the most high profile, I suppose, is the National Domestic Abuse helpline. That's a 24-7 phone line, 08082000247. And Victim Support also have a support line which again is free and 24-7 And that's 08081689111. But again, all of this information and more is on one of my favourite websites, which is the Bedfordshire Domestic Abuse Partnership website.
Martyn
The only ones I would want to I'd obviously, if you want to discuss for male victims as well, you can access everything Jenny’s just mentioned, they're all fantastic websites, all fantastic information out there. We'll obviously talk about the Talk:4M link and obviously nationally, we have Mankind Initiative, again fantastic information on there, there’s a direct phone number so you can speak to someone directly as well. So as I said, I think everything we probably covered – there’s something out there for everyone, and I think that's what we’re trying to say as well. There is always support out there, no matter who you are, where you are, there is always something that you can access.
Jayne
And there is always somebody at the end of a phone who is willing to help, is willing to listen and will believe you and begin your journey to a healthier place. Thank you very much, everybody, for joining me today, it's been a privilege to listen to you and to hear your advice and guidance, and I'm sure that there will be people out there that will act upon what you've mentioned today. Thank you, everybody, for listening to this podcast. There's a lot of experience that has spoken to you from many different angles of domestic abuse today. Please don't think that you are on your own. You are not. You have heard that anybody can be a victim and survivor of domestic abuse, and it's everybody's business, and it can happen to anyone at any time. There is a lot of support out there for you. You do not have to feel alone. You do not have to go to the Police if you don't want to. If you're not ready for that part of your journey as yet, there are plenty of support groups out there that we've discussed today. Please access support if you need help.
Thank you for listening to Relationships Shouldn't Hurt. If you or someone you know has been affected by domestic abuse or the issues raised in this podcast, you can contact the 24-hour National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 08082000247. You can also find lots of information about domestic abuse on our website, and if you're in the Bedfordshire area, you can find local support services on the Get Help page of this website. If you are in immediate danger, please call the Police on 999.