You are listening to Relationships Shouldn't Hurt, a podcast brought to you by Central Bedfordshire Council. During this series you'll be able to hear us talk all things domestic abuse and raise awareness of the support available to those affected.
Hello and welcome to Central Bedfordshire’s Relationships Shouldn't Hurt podcast. Today, this episode is male victims of domestic abuse. I'm joined by Mark from ManKind and Mikey from Victim Support Independent Domestic Violence Advisor, or IDVA, service, and we're going to be just talking generally around, specifically for men and those that are concerned about men affected by domestic abuse and practitioners working within Bedfordshire who may benefit from any of the information. So just a few statistics to start with, according to ManKind Initiative’s research one in six men will be a victim of domestic abuse in their lifetime. And according to Police data 26% of domestic abuse crimes are committed against men. That's around 155,000 offences per year. The government published their policy paper Supporting Male Victims of Crimes Considered Violence Against Women and Girls in March 2022, which sets out the current government position on and work to support male victims of crime considered violence against women and girls, which includes domestic abuse. So my name is Sian, I am from the Domestic Abuse team at Central Bedfordshire Council, I’m the Engagement Officer. Mark and Mikey if you'd like to introduce yourselves.
Mark
Hello there, my
name is Mark Brooks and I'm the Chair of the ManKind Initiative charity, and we
support male victims across the UK. We've been going for 20 years now, so lots
of experience in this field.
Sian
Fantastic, thank you. And Mikey.
Mikey
I'm an IDVA supporting victims of domestic abuse in Bedfordshire.
Sian
We’ll get started, how many men are affected as victims of domestic abuse?
Mikey
The Golden Question. How many men are affected?
Mark
Well, I think across the UK what we're finding is that there's around three quarters of a million every single year. These are from government statistics. The challenge, of course, is that these are often through anonymous type surveys. So the challenge of course is how many men are actually coming forward to get help, either from services or telling friends and family or just being able to leave. So it's hard to tell what the true picture is, and perhaps Mikey can talk about those experiences of the numbers of men coming forward in Bedfordshire.
Mikey
I couldn't agree with Mark more. So is that a true reflection of the people that are actually affected. I’d say no, I’d say that there's plenty of men, for whatever reason, not reporting, whether or not they recognise that they are in fact a victim of domestic abuse or whether it is a pride thing stopping them from coming forwards.
Sian
Do you see any connection with age with the victims and survivors that you're coming across? Is there a generation that's more likely to come forward in your experience?
Mikey
I don't think so. I think that I've actually had a real vast array of ages and different backgrounds, and I suppose maybe younger people are slightly more likely to acknowledge or to disclose but not really, no.
Mark
In terms of our helpline and the government statistics, it’s that the average age of the men who contact us are kind of middle-aged men, so tend to be from 35 to 55 and the average age is 42. They've been in abusive relationships for around six years. But we do get men contacting us who are in their eighties and from teenage, young men as well. And also, when it comes to domestic abuse, it doesn't discriminate against the type of occupational background. So we get men who are calling us who are unemployed or in irregular employment, and we've had politicians, we've had GPs, Police officers call us. So when it comes to domestic abuse, occupation or age isn't necessarily a kind of identikit, one size fits all type of victim. And what we do find often with the reason that middle aged men contact us more is that whilst younger men, according to the stats, are more likely to be a victim than men who are older, younger men are more able to escape in certain circumstances because they haven't got mortgage, haven't got children, they're not married. And once you start to bring in those additional factors that I mentioned, it's harder for anyone to actually leave domestic abuse because you've always got these pull factors keeping you in a relationship.
Sian
So both Respect Men's Advice Line and ManKind Initiative saw increasing calls about suicidal thoughts throughout the pandemic. Is that a big concern that you're continuing to notice? To Mark and Mikey from an IDVA in the community, are you finding also that that's something that you're coming across?
Mikey
Yeah, I think it's a really worrying trend to see. I've seen a lot in just the last few weeks, actually a marked increase in discussion around suicidal thoughts and even attempts of suicide as well.
Mark
I mean, one of the one of the issues around suicide in men, and this is on wider issues as well, I've been doing a lot of work on this over the last six months, is around men viewing suicide as a potential way of resolving problems that they've tried to resolve themselves or with others and haven't been able to do that. And so that's why it's absolutely vital to get to a point where men recognise that there is support out there and that those who do support them, which includes obviously services like Victim Support and helplines, but also friends, family, work colleagues and others, that they really need to be assured that there is help out there. So that the option that Mikey and I have just mentioned is not an option because they can escape from domestic abuse. And I think that's the situation we've got to get to. We've certainly seen more men contact us about it, I know others have also had increasing numbers of mothers and sisters really worried about their son or a brother in this way. And so I think it is a real concern, which is why we need to keep all the avenues of support not only open, but also well signposted.
Sian
And I hear often that suicide is one of the biggest killers of men, and the fact that we're talking that men don't express or come forward or disclose domestic abuse. Do you think, quite seriously, that there is a big connection between suicide and the lower statistics in male domestic abuse? That they're finding that's an out which is easier than actually disclosing the domestic abuse? And that's quite possibly why the statistics of male suicide are so prevalent?
Mark
I mean, there's lots of reasons for male suicide, relationship breakdown in its widest form is a key issue. Issues such as bereavement and also importantly employment, which isn't necessarily connected to domestic abuse, but employment and financial problems are a big driver. With respect to the issue around domestic abuse and suicide, I think one of the challenges is men recognise the abusive behaviours that they’re going through, and they recognise that they're wrong, but they don't equate that to domestic abuse, so they don't put the two bits of the equation together, so they don't put two and two together and think, right that's domestic abuse. And that's one of the challenges that all of us have, not only those in the field of domestic abuse and the Police and local authorities, but also friends, family and wider society have to help men put that equation together. The more so we can do that, the better. There is also a myth, I would say, that men don't talk, they do talk but they do it in a different way. And lots of men's charities in the broadest sense, including those in the mental health world and others about men's sheds talk about this issue about shoulder to shoulder, so men do a lot of communication with other men whilst doing other types of activities. And the key point, I always say, is that it's important for men to talk but you've got to be prepared to listen and do something, and that's, you know, sometimes it can be an excuse – well men don't talk, therefore we need to move away from that as a society.
Mikey
Interestingly, on what Mark was saying, so there have been times in my own personal life where I've had a specific moment where I've tried to speak with a friend of mine about something that happened in his relationship that he had previously messaged me about. So we set the time and a date to have this chat, and for him it felt so forced, and so he didn't really open up to me. And then a few days later, we were just working on the car together and his mind was somewhere else and he just started talking. And so it's exactly as Mark said, men do talk, and we will open up just in a different way and in a sort of a more unconventional time.
Sian
Yeah, getting that timing right and ensuring that person listening is actually hearing what the people are saying. It leads quite nicely onto ManKind statistics, 49% of male victims of domestic abuse don't tell anyone. Why is it hard for men to acknowledge what they are experiencing is actually domestic abuse?
Mikey
I don't personally think that it is a case that they can't see that it is domestic abuse, I always feel like it's more about they're afraid that they won't be believed or what else sort of comes with it. So, like I said, that shame sort of thing. So there obviously are people out there, men out there, that they can't see that this is domestic abuse because, you know, the feeling of it can't happen to me like, how could she be abusing me? How could she be bullying me type thing, or how could they be bullying me? But for me, most of time I think, it’s like the disclosure’s hampered by other things about shame.
Mark
Yeah, absolutely. And I would certainly agree with that and, you know, some of its quite deeper in how masculinity is represented. So there's arguments about this the last thousand years, and there'll be another one for another thousand years about whether masculinity behaviours are nature, i.e. they’re hard wired in men as soon as they're born or whether they're part of the environment they grow up in. And people have different views on where men are on that spectrum. The key thing is though, that you've got a view about how men should feel and how they should think and also how they should act. And for men that really chimes into what Mikey was saying about the fear of being believed. Embarrassed. Shame. How can this be happening to me? But also it reflects on how society recognises male victims as well. So one of the things that we've been exploring is something called believability threshold, which is a fancy title. But it means broadly that men have to work harder for other people to believe them than potentially a female in the same situation. Because society doesn't recognise as much weakness in men, and they don't recognise domestic abuse in the same way. And something we've been again working with Police and those in housing departments, social services and especially in GPs and accident and emergency departments is around this professional curiosity and making sure that all of those in those settings and the public, friends, family, work colleagues have a really attuned Spidey sense, you know, their Spidey Sense is attuned to think a man is in a toxic relationship, in the same way it's attuned to potentially a woman, like a friend or a sister or a mother or a daughter for example. And so what we need to get to in society is for society to actually be as attuned to this, in terms of a man can and is a victim of domestic abuse in the same way that a woman can be. The last point I would always add is never to forget men in same sex relationships as well. And I think that’s an area again, which is not explored enough, but also lots of these issues affect men in same sex relationships too, and it's something we should never forget.
Sian
So it almost feels a lot of work is being done around male domestic abuse and making those victims understand there’s places to go. But it really sounds like as a society, as much work if not more, needs to be done on their understanding of male domestic abuse and the stigmas that are attached to it.
Mikey
Absolutely. And I think if standardised questions could be introduced for males as well, it would help a massive amount. So when a lady goes to a hospital appointment, she's pregnant or whatever, and she's pulled aside. I remember distinctly when my wife was pregnant with our son that I was asked to leave the room, and I dutifully did, I knew what it was about and obviously there were no issues whatsoever. But there was always that little part of me that was thinking, well isn't anybody going to ask me? I could also be a victim of domestic abuse, but that question was never asked. And I've spoken to countless men, and they've never been asked in a professional sort of situation like that if they are a victim of domestic abuse.
Sian
So what do you think as organisations like local authorities, ManKind Initiative, Respect, can do to try and change that? Is there any way, do you have any thoughts around that?
Mark
I think the main issue is about when we talk about domestic abuse, we make sure we're clear that it affects women and men and for me that extends right from the government all the way down to local authorities and also us as individuals and society in general. And for me, it's really important to use the word men or the gender nouns, and what I mean by that is that if you talk about victims of domestic abuse in the general sense among your communications, website etc. men won't think that's for them, and society won't think that's for them. The society and the men themselves and others will figure well, that's just about women. But if you use campaigns and when you talk about domestic abuse that say we're going to support female and male victims of domestic abuse, and of course you can use nonbinary as well if that's your position and policy. What you will do is the light bulbs will go off in the minds of men and others that this domestic abuse affects men as well, but in a way that does not stop any women from disclosing or coming forward, because if you use the word female or women, women will think well that's for me. By using the word men or male or he, and the him is really important because we still see in national level training footnotes saying there's more female victims and male victims, which is true, but we recognise that there are male victims. And then the rest of the training just talks about female victims, even all the case studies. And they’re heterosexual female victims and they’re never female victims in same sex relationships and the pronouns is always she or her rather than her/him or she/he. And if we still have all of that in our narrative on domestic abuse we will never get to the situation where there's equal recognition, which is where we need to be there. It’s the third decade of this century, diversity and inclusion is recognised as the way forward, so we need to make sure that happens around domestic abuse too.
Sian
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So I know we've touched slightly on this subject, but from both of you, what are the barriers men can face when leaving an abusive relationship?
Mikey
I think that one of not being believed is probably the biggest one, the fear of not being believed. And I think it's, from speaking to so many of my clients, it's the one that seems to be used by perpetrators. Saying who is ever is going to believe that I could abuse you, that you'd be abused by me. And even if people do believe you or even if you do try, then the system’s tailored in my benefit so you can kiss goodbye to the children and things.
Mark
Yeah, just adding on to that I mean children is a real issue. Men, as well as women, won't leave the household and leave their children behind with a violent partner, for example, and also that threat if you leave, you'll never see your children again. I think in addition to what Mikey said, it's also about where men can escape to and whether they have the money to get on with their lives. I mean, there's always an assumption, I've seen in certain places where it's like well, it's easier for men to escape because men have money and women don't. Well that might have been a position in society thirty years ago but it’s certainly not always the situation now. And you see lots of men being in abusive relationships because they don't have the means of escaping. And that obviously then builds on all the issues that the Mikey said as well.
Mikey
And I think toxic masculinity has got a lot to answer for as well hasn't it?
Sian
Can you just expand on that a little bit in case any of the listeners aren’t really sure what that means?
Mikey
Yeah, so for me, it means how society views men and how other men view men. And so, if a male was to disclose domestic abuse to his friend or a group of friends, how they then react to that and if they were to just mock him for it, then it's just exacerbating the issue isn't it?
Mark
I mean, it's an interesting phrase that, because it's one that other colleagues in the wider men's health sphere, and health and wellbeing and domestic abuse kind of comes under those terms as well as obviously issues around crime etc. But it's a really interesting phrase, because how Mikey describes it isn't often how it's actually used. How it's used often by commentators and campaigners to other organisations is the way to actually say that the reason that men don't seek help for X Y and Z is actually their own fault. And it's because there's something inherently toxic about masculinity and men, which is which is quite a troubling issue because it's almost as though society is blaming men for the problems they have and it's basically their fault. So that's a phrase that I got into arguments about. But the thing is, what Mikey is saying, is a different kind of subgroup of that and it’s not often how it’s framed. But there is an issue certainly about how men view other men who are in vulnerable positions, including in domestic abuse. And certainly we have seen situations where men have mocked other men and ridiculed them for being victims of domestic abuse. Because it's like, well what sort of man are you? You’re a man you should be able to keep her in check and etc. etc. So there is certainly a really strong element of that.
Sian
Thank you. So if you were to come across or somebody had disclosed that they were suffering or a victim of domestic abuse. Where can a man go to get help and support?
Mikey
So men can come us at Victim Support. And in Bedfordshire there's the Talk for Men programme as well.
Mark
Building on that there are national helplines, one that we run, there’s Men's Advice Line. There are other groups as well, but also there's plenty of information on our website, Men's Advice Line website and lots of other websites with information that’s particularly tailored for men. And we know that many men won't necessarily contact other organisations, but they look for information anonymously, so anonymous support for men is really important, we found out on our helpline but also on websites as well. So if you are a man look for information on websites that will help you and many men escape without actually telling anyone, but they've done it in the safe way because of the information that's available. So there is help out there either face to face over the telephone or online is that there is help out there.
Sian
Brilliant, great and we've also got the Bedfordshire Domestic Abuse Partnership website, which has a full directory of support and help and some of those are specifically just for men. So if you came across friends or family members that were worried about somebody that was affected by domestic abuse, what can they do?
Mark
I think there's a number of things they can do. I mean, first of all they themselves can look for information on websites and call helplines. So lots of organisations, us included, welcome calls from mothers and sisters and brothers and dads to find out how they can go about helping a man that they know escape from domestic abuse. The key thing is just to start to move the door ajar, if you think there’s someone you know in an abusive relationship, so actually start asking those questions, is everything or okay at home? Is there anything I can do to help? Always available to have a chat. Don't necessarily push it anymore, as Mikey mentioned with his friend, Mikey left the door ajar and gradually he walked through the door. The other thing is really important to believe, really, really important to believe them instantly when they disclose and also help them, say that you're part of the team to help them escape. That may include going to their employer, may include going to the Police with them, for example. So, you know, look at it as though you're part of the team to actually help them escape from the abuse. But the key thing is just to start opening the door.
Mikey
Yeah, building on that from what Mark said, just believe them and just show them as much as you possibly can to help them see that they're not in this alone, and that they're not the only person or the only male to ever go through this.
Sian
Okay and going forward so to end this, if you could do or change or just give one last bit of information that you want to get out there for our listeners or any man affected by domestic abuse or any of their family members, is there anything that you want to add?
Mark
From my perspective, the key issue is that there's hundreds of men who are victims of domestic abuse, so you're not alone. You're not to blame, and you're not weak. But the key thing is, there's hundreds of men escaping from domestic abuse as well every single day, so you can escape too.
Mikey
Yeah, I can't put it any better than that.
Sian
There are refuge places that are specifically for men available now?
Mikey
Yeah.
Sian
Fantastic. Thank you both for coming today and doing this podcast with us.
Mikey
Thank you.
Mark
A real pleasure, thank you.
Sian
If you have been affected by anything mentioned in this episode, you can reach out to the services mentioned. Nationally ManKind Initiative can be contacted on 01823334244. There is also the Respect Phone Line on 0808801327. More information on accessing IDVA support can be found on Victim Support’s website, where there is an online referral form. Within Bedfordshire the Early Childhood Partnership run Talk For Men. People can refer themselves over the phone on 03003230245. If you require other support, the BDAP website has information on lots of services.
Thank you for listening to
Relationships Shouldn’t Hurt. If you or someone you know has been affected by
domestic abuse or the issues raised in this podcast, there is support
available. For women, contact the 24-hour National
Domestic Abuse helpline on
08082000247. For men experiencing domestic abuse, contact Men’s Advice Line on 08088010327 or ManKind Initiative on 01823334244. And for members of the LGBTQ+ community,
the Galop LGBT+
Helpline is available on 08009995428.
You can also find lots of information about domestic abuse on our website, www.bedsdv.org.uk, and
if you’re in the Bedfordshire area, you can find local support services on the
Get Help page of this website. All of the telephone numbers mentioned are
also listed. If someone is in immediate danger, please call the Police on 999.