You are listening to Relationships Shouldn't Hurt, a podcast brought to you by Central Bedfordshire Council. During this series, you'll be able to hear us talk all things domestic abuse and raise awareness of the support available to those affected.
We would like to dedicate this podcast to our late colleague, Lucky Begum. Lucky worked at Luton All Women’s Centre for over ten years and made an incredible contribution to improving the lives of many women in the Luton area. Lucky became ill with Covid at the start of January and after five months in hospital, unfortunately lost her battle to make a recovery. She was much loved by family and colleagues and will be remembered so fondly by many people who worked with her over the years. Lucky specialised in harmful practices, particularly working with women experiencing forced marriage or honour-based abuse. She was one of the national deliverers of the Our Girl campaign and coordinated a forced marriage conference in Luton, working with the Police and national partners. Lucky's beaming smile and willingness to help out will be remembered by all of us.
Tracy
In today’s podcast we're going to be talking about female genital mutilation, which we might also talk about as FGM. Before we start to discuss this harmful practice, I need to say that FGM is illegal and it's certainly not acceptable. We're going to be talking more about this in the podcast later and about how to report it, but I really feel I needed to highlight that right at the beginning of the episode. Hello and welcome to this edition of Relationships Shouldn't Hurt. Throughout this podcast we're going to be talking about what female genital mutilation is and the long-term impact on women and girls who’ve undergone it. I'm Tracy, I'm from Central Bedfordshire Council, and I'm here today with Sarah Loftus from Luton All Women's Centre. Hello, Sarah.
Sarah
Hi Tracy.
Tracy
So we're going to be talking about female genital mutilation today. Sarah before we talk about what it is, are there any statistics for FGM?
Sarah
To be honest, Tracy, it's actually really difficult to be specific about how many people in the UK have undergone FGM or are at risk of it. So it's one of those things that's really hidden within communities, and it's incredibly difficult for us to accurately say how many people are actually affected.
Tracy
That sounds quite scary to think about that Sarah. We're going to talk about what FGM is. There are four types is that correct?
Sarah
Correct, yeah. So in a nutshell, FGM is the deliberate cutting of female genitalia with no medical reason, so that's in a nutshell what it is. And it's important to make it very clear that this is most usually carried out without anaesthetic and by people that are not medically trained. As you say Tracy, there are four types. So the first type of FGM is the removal of the clitoris. The second type of FGM is the removal of the clitoris and the inner labia, so the inner lips of the vagina. The third type is the removal of essentially all of the genitalia, so the clitoris, the inner lips and the outer lips. And in that instance, a lady would be sewn up and there will be a hole about the size of a matchstick left for her to urinate etc. And then the other type is any other harmful non-medical procedures that may happen.
Tracy
Thanks, Sarah. I cannot get my head around what you've just been describing. It sounds barbaric. But despite describing something that sounds torturous to be carried out without anaesthetic and without somebody who's medically trained and for no medical reason, it's not necessarily carried out as a way of harming a young woman or a girl. Why does it happen?
Sarah
Yeah, you're right there, Tracy. There's no intent of malice whatsoever. The cultures that carry this out genuinely believe that they are safeguarding their daughter's future. So by having this procedure carried out, they will be accepted within their community, they will find a good husband, which is obviously incredibly important in some of these communities, and so their wellbeing will be safeguarded. I think the issue is there's a lack of understanding of the health impact of this, and I feel that if people fully understood what could happen, what could go wrong, those practices would change. But yes, as bizarre as it sounds, the intent is a good one, although, as you say, it's a torturous, a torturous procedure.
Tracy
And obviously there are going to be young girls, very young girls, who die as a result of the FGM that they've undergone. And I think the terminology is bleeding out. And we don't know how many young women, young girls, this is happening to.
Sarah
Exactly, I mean, you know, FGM can be performed on a girl from a baby up to a teenager. The main age risk is age five to eight actually, that's where it's most prevalent. But exactly that I mean, the short-term effects of FGM could be death, as you said, it could well be death. It will be severe shock, there could be broken bones involved, which sounds really quite bizarre. But, you know, it is an extremely painful procedure, and girls will literally be pinned down, often by older women, holding them down in place. So then, you know we can get injuries to bones, there can be soft tissue injury, because this is not a nice, neat medical, you know, procedure, this is somebody, and I'm sorry to say these words, but hacking at somebody with, you know, potentially blunt instruments, and that's going to cause a lot of damage in the surrounding area as well, which obviously will have long term repercussions. So yeah, short term extremely dangerous and long term even more so.
Tracy
Can we talk about some of those long-term impacts? Because I think it's fair to say that sometimes FGM first comes to light if a woman attends antenatal appointments. So she's pregnant. But we've talked about an opening that's left which is the size of a matchstick. So some form of sexual intercourse has happened, the woman has become pregnant, so that sounds like almost a miracle that's happened.
Sarah
Yeah, I mean, absolutely, I mean many women are actually left infertile by FGM. When you think about the size of a matchstick and how very small that is, you can imagine that in the longer term you're going to have problems going to the toilet, having a wee, because the gap is so small that it will take a really long time for urine to leave your body. The other big danger is that, you know, your periods can't come out of your body, so blood can be pooling on the inside and that can cause an awful lot of internal damage. And that can cause infertility. If someone is fortunate enough not for that to happen to them and they do become pregnant. The problem there you have is that obviously that tissue in that area with scar tissue, and we all know that scar tissue doesn't stretch and move. So a woman's body is made, obviously, to stretch when she's giving birth. And in these cases that just can't happen, depending on how and when they've been cut. So massive problems physically with urination, with infertility, with pregnancy and associated complications. But I think really significant is actually the post-traumatic stress disorder that women will suffer from, having undergone this really frightening and painful procedure. So if you can imagine that somebody is being held down, their intimate areas being displayed, people they know and trust might be holding them down. I mean, it's a really bewildering and frightening experience, then without the pain and the shock and the aftermath, where obviously healing takes some time. So, you know, I've watched films of women that have undergone this saying, actually, I've got a scar that no one can see and that scar’s with me every single day. So I think that the psychological impact of this would really never leave somebody.
Tracy
It is unimaginable, and I think it's really important that you highlight not just the physical effects, but those long term emotional mental health effects. So I've heard a little bit about FGM, and one of the things I was going to ask you about, which feels so uncomfortable, is that young girls sometimes are told that they're going to have something really exciting happening, it's going to be a party, and there's that sense of excitement. Something wonderful is going to happen, and actually what happens is what you've described. The physical injuries, the potential for broken bones, the people that you love in your family are holding you down and causing you massive harm. I guess that has an impact as well. I mean, how do these children trust those adults again around them, when they've been responsible for causing them so much damage? I can't imagine that; how does that go on?
Sarah
It's a really good question. I mean, as you say, it is seen as a transition to womanhood. So there will be treats given, there will be, you know, maybe parties, extra food given to the people that they're having this procedure and I think that in these cultures, people are just told this is what happened to your mum. This is what happened to your grandmother. This is what we do. And what's happened to you is no different to everybody else. And I do know women that have actually not allowed their daughters to have this, these are women living in the UK, and they have said my daughter will not be cut. And actually, they're really frowned upon within the community. You know, they're seeing this dirty as, you know, not being appropriate to be married in the future. So it's really, it's just such a complicated issue. And it's all about, I think, talking about this, this really difficult subject and making sure people are aware of it and just re-educating people that actually, you know, you love your daughter dearly. You want the best for your daughter, you want her to have, you know, a good education, a happy man, married, children. But by doing this one act you could be actually forfeiting all of that for her. And I think we just need to be talking about this and educating.
Tracy
So why does it happen? I understand about wanting the best for the daughter in terms of marrying well, I get that. But why are those intimate areas removed? What's the purpose?
Sarah
I mean, interestingly I mean clearly it is to inhibit sexual activity, let's not make any bones about it. So if a girl has been cut, she can't have sexual intercourse easily. In fact, on the night of the wedding they would be reopened. So, you know, a raw wound at that time. So I think, undoubtedly is to stop promiscuity amongst women and to ensure that they’re sexually pure is also a large part of it.
Tracy
I don't know if you know the answer to this Sarah, jumping in here with a question, but so there's that rule for young women about not being promiscuous and marrying as virgins, do the same rules apply to the young men in those cultures where FGM takes place?
Sarah
I can't answer that question, really. But I do know that when I've been out talking about this subject with young men and women in colleges, that the men are really, really taken by this subject. They probably didn't actually know what it entails for the females. And certainly all the young men that I've spoken to have actually been really quite adamant, why is this happening to our sisters, to our mothers, to our friends? This needs to change. So I think that if any change does come, I think it will be from the young men of today who will not want people to suffer in that way. As I said, it's such a private thing that people just don't talk about it in those communities. They don't actually understand really what happens. And you know, a man would love his wife, he would want, you know, to have a good relationship with her. I'm sure he wouldn't want to hurt during sex. So you know, it's really hard to understand this difference of the sexes, but it's a very encouragingly my own experience is that young men are saying, nah, this just needs to stop.
Tracy
That's really positive to hear. So FGM is completely illegal in the UK, does it happen in the UK do you think?
Sarah
It certainly does. I mean, there's certain countries where it's most prevalent around the world and I’ll just quickly give you a few of those. The highest prevalence is in Somalia, so 98% of girls in Somalia will be cut. 98%. If you look at countries like Guinea, it's 96%, and then Egypt is 91%. So these sort of central Africa, it's where the most prevalent countries are. Then you've got Eritrea, Mali, Sierra Leone, Sudan, all of these are high risk areas, so girls may well be taken home for this procedure. I have heard that people are becoming more clever with that, because schools are quite geared up to be aware of, she's going off for a long holiday, alarm bells sound. So I have heard that people are flying, for example, to Turkey and then getting a flight to the home country so that that's not picked up. But as you say Tracy, loads of people are being cut in the UK and it's just so hard for us to gather the evidence of who is cutting and where, and that's what we really need to know. I was at a national conference recently on this subject, and there was a suggestion that people are coming from northern Europe to the UK to be cut. But again, intelligence is very patchy. And I think that, you know, this conference was all the key stakeholders in the country, and you know, unanimously were saying this is just hard to tamp it. But certainly cutting does take place in the UK as well as back in the home country.
Tracy
So we talked in our other podcast, we talked about the effect of Covid on forced marriage and honour-based abuse. Would the restrictions that have been in place throughout Covid and the different lockdowns that we've had, would they have had any impact on people not being able to go out of the country for FGM. I guess that scenario we don't know about do we.
Sarah
I mean, I think that's a good assumption. And I think that again with the fact that we've been in these lockdowns, it has enabled people that are cutters here in the UK, you know, it has really made it a lot easier for them to cut those girls because ordinarily they would be going to schools, going to colleges, interacting, and absence would be noticed while it healed. Obviously, while we were shut down for three months, yeah, heaven knows how many girls could have been cut here because it would have given them recovery time. So again, with all these things, you know, Covid really hasn't been helpful with any form of abuse or harmful practice.
Tracy
Thanks for that, Sarah. So if somebody has been affected by FGM they can get support and they could come to your organisation, the Luton All Women's Centre.
Sarah
Absolutely. I mean, we support anyone that's affected by trauma, and I think that there's no doubt that FGM is a traumatic experience. So obviously we're not a medical organisation, but we can provide emotional support for people that have been through a really difficult time. There are FGM clinics in the country, the nearest to us in Bedfordshire is probably London, and they will do an operation which is called deinfibulation, which basically means opening back up again. So there is medical support for people that need that. Obviously, it's also very closely monitored by our hospitals, so as you said, somebody that goes to maternity will probably be picked up as an FGM case if they haven't been before. They will be offered a lot of support through that hospital, again physically and emotionally and actually if they do have a girl, that girl is then flagged as being at risk of FGM if there is a family history of it. So there are protective measures in place and also, as you said, you know, it is illegal. So if anybody working in health or social care or teaching suspects that a girl may be at risk of FGM they have a mandatory duty to report. So those are kind of the wrap around things as well as getting the treatment, but going back to your original question, yes, they can come and talk to us. There is the FGM clinic. There's also an organisation called ACCM in Bedford that support people with this. And other organisations we mentioned the other day, like IKWRO and the Karma Nirvana, these kind of organisations tend to help with all forms of harmful practice.
Tracy
Is there any anything that you would say to anybody that's listening to this who is worried about themselves, worried about a family member? What would you advise them to do?
Sarah
Yeah, I mean similarly to what we talked about with the forced marriage. You can obtain an FGM protection order, so it's similar to the forced marriage protection order. It would prevent you being able to be taken abroad and again, it's a similar injunction. So if you Google that there's lots of information about FGM protection orders, so that's a really good starting point, if you're worried. I would also advise people just to speak to people in their, you know, college, in their school, if they have any concerns, that they know it's happened to anybody else in their family. And I think that, you know, we just need to say, get talking about this and not be embarrassed to say about this. I think that some people are worried that it's not their culture, and they shouldn't be talking about it. Well, actually, you know, this is a practice that's dangerous. It's illegal, it's not condoned by any religion, and it is actually all of our business to be protecting girls. So, you know, speak up and speak to the right people. And there are mechanisms in place that can support people.
Tracy
Can people go directly to the Police?
Sarah
Yes, indeed, yes. So again, I mentioned in the previous podcast that there's a couple of dedicated Police officers, Sally and Tash, that work with harmful practices and certainly, yes there’s designated FGM workers within the Police.
Tracy
Excellent. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for your time again, Sarah, it's been a really interesting, not comfortable discussion I have to be honest, but it's been really worth while having. So I would just like to say thank you again. And I am going to go through a great long list of the support services that exist nationally and locally. Anybody can have a look at the Bedfordshire Domestic Abuse Partnership website. Also, the organisation that Sarah works for, Luton All Women's Centre is on the internet. Karma Nirvana and Southall Black Sisters. But if you go over to either the BDAP website or the Luton All Women’s Centre website, you'll find all that information there. And if you are interested in looking up the FGM protection order, you can find out details about that on the BDAP website under protection orders. Thanks very much, Sarah. And look forward to talking to you again in the future.
Sarah
Thanks, Tracy.
Thank you for listening to Relationships Shouldn't Hurt. If you or someone you know has been affected by domestic abuse or the issues raised in this podcast, you can contact the 24-hour National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 08082000247. You can also find lots of information about domestic abuse on our website, and if you're in the Bedfordshire area, you can find local support services on the Get Help page of this website. If you are in immediate danger, please call the Police on 999.