You are listening to Relationships Shouldn't Hurt, a podcast brought to you by Central Bedfordshire Council. During this series, you'll be able to hear us talk all things domestic abuse and raise awareness of the support available to those affected.
So welcome, everybody, to the latest edition of Relationships Shouldn't Hurt podcast. Today we're talking about stalking and harassment, and we're talking about stalking and harassment as part of a domestic abuse relationship, not stranger stalking. So that's relationships where you could be affected by a partner, a spouse, a family member or an ex-partner or spouse. So my name's Joy and I work in Central Bedfordshire Council, and today I'm joined by Jackie Dadd. Jackie, would you like to just introduce yourself and tell a little bit about yourself?
Jackie
Yeah, hi Joy. I'm a consultant for JDCG Limited, which provides assistance to both the private and public sectors on how to improve their services in specialist areas, such as domestic abuse. I’ve recently retired as a Detective Chief Inspector of Bedfordshire Police and was the force lead in the area of domestic abuse for some time. So hopefully I'll be able to assist this morning.
Joy
Lovely. Thanks ever so much, Jackie. And I think that your experience of the discussion today is hopefully going to really help people understand the topic of stalking and harassment and, really importantly, where they can go for any help if they feel that they've been affected by what they're listening to. But just before we jump into it then, I think it's really useful to have a look at some of the high-level statistics. And that's led us to really talk about stalking and harassment today. So we know that one in five women and one in ten men will experience a form of stalking in their adult life. And the Metropolitan Police Service have found that 40% of the victims of domestic homicides, so those people who’ve been killed, have also been stalked. Just those two figures are laying, Jackie I don't know how you feel, but that, for me, is really huge when we look at the population and just our own networks and family and friendship groups.
Jackie
Yeah, no, I agree. Joy. Those figures are concerning when you look at the amount of people that are affected within these areas, and that's just the people who have identified it and have brought it to our attention. There will be people out there who don't actually know that this is actually happening to them and think that it's normality. And so I think it's important this morning for us to make sure that we do stress ways of identifying it, and how to then cope with it and handle it and who to go to if it does happen to somebody.
Joy
Absolutely. So it's really interesting because we obviously have worked in this sector for a number of years, so we’re used to the term stalking, we’re used to the term harassment, perhaps what that means and what it looks like. But some of our listeners might be a little unsure, so, really, it’d be nice to explore what we mean by and what we feel that stalking is, and also what the meaning of harassment is, because they are different but there are some links and similarities between them. So from your point of view, Jackie, what do you feel when you hear the term stalking and harassment?
Jackie
So as you say, there are some similarities to both offences. They come under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, and you can get protection orders and injunctions for both offences, which I think is important for people to know, we’ll potentially go into that a little bit later on. But they're both harmful and neither are wanted by the victim. And I think that's an important part of both of the offences. The victim can be in fear and the perpetrator is committing abuse if they do this, and so that's an important factor that it is a form of abuse. When you look at harassment, it is the type of offences and the type of actions that cause mental health issues and emotional anguish. It's actions that can be annoying and a nuisance, but they are quite obvious and overt. So it's somebody who's not trying to hide their actions, you know, they're making it known that they want to bother you and that they want you to feel affected by it. Whereas then when you look at stalking, it’s slightly more sinister, and it's slightly more covert. With stalking it's somebody who is being a bit sneaky, potentially because they've become fixated and obsessed with somebody else and so therefore, they'll do it without the other person knowing, which is a concerning factor when it goes back to the statistics, you said about the Metropolitan Police earlier on in this podcast, and it will make people scared and anxious and then harassed, which is where the overlay comes.
Joy
Yeah, absolutely. What we see for people who have been stalked by somebody that they know, so as we've said, this is a podcast around domestic abuse, say a spouse or an ex-partner or an ex-boyfriend or girlfriend or significant other, and actually family members can stalk each other under that sort of unhealthy relationship banner. And that might be sort of physical stalking, but we can also suffer with them cyberstalking. And a lot more of what we do at the moment is online and over the internet, and actually, cyberstalking is just as important to recognise as a form of stalking as physical stalking, that someone might be walking behind you or in front of you or using their vehicle to trace you, and certainly from harassment as well that can be over the internet, I understand as well, Jackie, is that right?
Jackie
Yes, certainly. But when you look at harassment, it's unwanted communication. So that can come in any type of form, really, whether that be over the phone with either speaking or silent phone calls, texts, etc. But then social media has come to the fore where people are either being stalked, or they're being overtly harassed on social media. And sometimes I think people have the concern, actually, it's more of a civil matter. But depending on the severity, you should always seek advice to see if it actually overlaps into criminal, or whether there's assistance there that can be given by the Police in that matter.
Joy
So if we were looking at sort of something like that, if we're looking at sort of the cyber space at the moment, could it be somebody hacking into Facebook accounts, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok, or setting up a fake account and sending messages through fake accounts? Do we see some of that?
Jackie
Yes, certainly all of those types. If you're in a relationship with somebody then there's that amount of trust there, and so you are more inclined to give them passwords and access to your social media, etc. and so, therefore, that assists them whether you know it or not at the time in a relationship with them gaining access to a large part of your life. Obviously, if that relationship then ends some of the things that people don't particularly think of is that actually, I should change those passwords and I should change those accesses, because that still allows that person to have access to a large part of your life that you may not want them to any longer. And they can then follow your movements without you knowing it. Or actually bring that back and use it as a course of harassment of the knowledge that they have. So that's something to bear in mind when you're sharing your passwords of when is the time when, actually, you should keep them secret, or you should change them.
Joy
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's one of those things that perhaps most of us take for granted isn't it really? If you're in a relationship with, you know, another person who's your significant other or a family member actually, it doesn't give them the right to harass you or to do something that you don't want them to do and use that social media against you, and to infiltrate your friendship group to find out where you are in the start of some of that harassment and that's stalking side of things.
Jackie
That's correct. That's the whole purpose of the Protection from Harassment Act and why they are continually, with the way the world changes, are continually updating those Acts, especially with the stalking and stalking prevention orders that have now come out. They're changing the Act and tweaking it every year to make it up to date with what is going on in real-life situations.
Joy
So that leads us onto a really interesting point then about real-life situations. So how can someone recognise if they are being stalked or harassed? And what are some of the signs that they might actually expect to see?
Jackie
The first thing I would say is gut instinct. A lot of people think that there may be something wrong but put it to the back of their mind and think, well, it's just coincidence. Or if they're in a relationship with somebody, then they obviously don't want to believe that of their partner. The reason why you get into a relationship, that there's always those reasons in the first place, and there's something there. So it's then difficult to then recognise that actually, there is another side to that person, either when you're in a relationship or when the relationship has ended. And so therefore, if you get the feeling that something's not right, that person keeps turning up unexpectedly and you think, how do they know I'm here? There's a reason why they know that you're there, you know, are they following you? Have they got access to your social media? And so therefore they can see what you're posting about, where you're going and what you're up to. If you work for a company and you have a daily routine and that person keeps turning up or is making contact with your company rather than yourself, then that's still form of harassment or stalking, depending on the severity of it and the nuances of it because they're going through a third party. Stalking can have rather innocent gestures that when you then couple them together, in isolation they don't seem to mean anything, so if you get a bunch of flowers on your birthday from somebody who you haven't seen in three months and it is a bit out of the ordinary, then you might just think of that in isolation. But actually, if you've already identified a number of different things of them turning up or things being out of sorts, that shouldn't have been up until then, then that's a kind of sign that actually, there may be a course of conduct going on that you're not particularly aware of. So if you recognise that, and then you actually put it together with another number of things that could actually look like a course of conduct, then that's when you should start, you know, you should take it seriously, and you should confide in somebody, whether that be a close family member or if you feel that you're in danger then obviously contact the Police straight away. Make sure that you give them that overall picture because sometimes people will contact the Police and say, well I've got a bunch of flowers on my birthday from this person, and I didn't want them, I've been broken up from them three months and just give them that in isolation, without the context is difficult to understand the actual background. But if they then give a couple of examples of what has been happening leading up to that, then that can be acted on by the Police and looked into in further detail. So it's important to be cognizant of what is going on, not to the degree that you're actually obsessed with it and you're seeing things that aren't there, but just recognising the fact that there may be something wrong and you need to highlight it to somebody just so that you've shared that problem.
Joy
Definitely. I think it's a really good point you made about, you know, why does an individual happen to be in the same place that you are when you might not have told them, or when you've got home, you know, they contact you to say did you have a good evening, at a particular restaurant or a pub, or did you have a good time seeing your friend? And you haven't told them that you were there. You kind of have to like, have that gut instinct about why would they know that if you haven't shared that information with them? I think also for me, we know that there are people who have endured lots of different text messages and constant phone calls or missed calls and sending emails and sometimes letters. And actually, there's so much of it that's happening during the day, and we've got survivors of stalking and harassment that tell us that they've been, they've had phone calls from over 100 times in just a morning session, which is really not normal. So we would be asking people to have a look at their relationships and really just strip back whether that's a healthy relationship, that they feel that they're in, whether they feel that they are being harassed, if they feel anxious, if they feel fearful, if they don't answer the phone for that 100th time, what would happen to them? And if they feel that they're being followed by a vehicle or by a person, that isn't normal. So I say it's really making sure that they understand what else that could be telling them and then seeking some support for those activities that they feel are unwanted and they don't want that to happen towards them.
Jackie
Yeah, definitely, and not just them recognising it but it may be that others could recognise it as well. You know, if you sit next to somebody at work and you see them receiving 100 phone calls, you see their reaction to looking down at their phone and who's phoning them etc. These are all signs that potentially somebody else could pick up on it. Point it out to that person or do a check in with them to make to make sure that everything's all right and perhaps that kind of introduction to a discussion may then make that person open up and tell them what's been going on if they've kept it all to themselves.
Joy
Definitely. So if we look at people who are harassed and people who are stalked, who can be a victim of stalking and harassment, is it anybody?
Jackie
Unfortunately, the answer to that Joy is yes, anybody can be either harassed or stalked. As we've mentioned before, this can be somebody who you are in a relationship with, and you're very close to, and that includes, like family members and then ex-partners. So it is very, I think it's important to highlight that is very high in people who have come out of a relationship, that it can happen to them, and it's more likely to happen there. But it happens within relationships, it happens after relationships. And it may be that whilst you’re in that relationship you do hear patterns of behaviour that perhaps your partner has had beforehand, whether male or female, because it happens to both, as we've heard. And if you do hear that they've had certain actions or done certain things before you’ve got into that relationship, if you do end that relationship then just be mindful of that. Because quite often we will see people who will move from relationship to another relationship and have the same pattern of behaviour time and time again. So if they've done it once, then they are likely to then do it again.
Joy
It's really important for people to understand isn't it, that it can be an ex-partner? But it's interesting, isn't it, if you're in that relationship and, like you say, you have trust in that person or you have trust in your family member, you don't expect someone to then cause this harm and this fear and this control over you. But why do people do it then? Why do people stalk somebody that they’re proposing that they love, or they have affection for them? Why do they harass them?
Jackie
I think perhaps when you're in that relationship there, there's obviously an issue of trust. If somebody feels that they've got to do that to their partner, then they can't trust them in order to have to follow their every move. And as we know, trust is a massive part of any relationship, and it may be the other side of them where they look and want to control that person, they want to intimidate them and put fear into them. And they utilise stalking and harassment as part of controlling that person and making sure that they know that they know what they're doing. And if they do anything that they're not, that they don't like, then there may be consequences because, as we've said, stalking and harassment within a relationship does come under domestic abuse, and that can lead to other forms of abuse then.
Joy
It's really concerning, I think, for people who are listening to this and perhaps understanding, maybe some things that are happening to them could be stalking and harassment, or it may be someone, like you said, a friend or a work colleague that you've observed that might be having this behaviour towards them. So what can people do if they think they are being stalked or harassed? Are there people that you would say that are good to go and contact, are their support services there? What can people do, really?
Jackie
Well, first of all, you've got your trusted friends and your family. So anybody who you can trust there, you know, people are more inclined to go to people closest to them. But if they don't want to involve their friends or family, we've said about colleagues at work and your employers who have got duty of care to look after you, and there's things that they can do. But there are people out there, there are support services that can help you. If you go to the Police, then obviously the Police can help you. Don't worry whether you think it's stalking or harassment, that's not important. If you think something's wrong, take what's happening to the Police or to an expert, and they will decide whether it's stalking or harassment. So don't worry if you can't identify what it is, the Police can help you. They have Victim Engagement Officers who can support and advise you through criminal proceedings to make sure that you don't feel alone, and then they'll also refer you to the most appropriate support service for the needs that you have. So there are domestic abuse support services out there, many of them because, as we've said, it comes under domestic abuse. But then you do have specialist support services for stalking, such as the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, for example, which was set up after her tragic death, or the Paladin, who are the national stalking advocacy service. So there are specialists out there who can help you, and all of those specialists mentioned will assist you in getting any orders that you need as well, if you didn't want to go down the criminal proceedings route.
Joy
Absolutely. It's a really interesting one for people to make a decision, and it's a really big decision for people to phone the Police and tell somebody what's happening and start that criminal justice process if they're not sure. And support services are a really good way for those who don't want to involve the Police, perhaps, or who are not sure about what's happening to them, perhaps wants some advice for a friend or family member. Just to kind of re-cover what you've said, Jackie, the National Stalking Helpline, which is run by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust is a really good source of information, and they've got a really comprehensive website and they’re on 08088020300. And you've mentioned again Paladin National Stalking Advocacy service, so again they've got really good information on their website and they can be contacted on 02038664107. And we'll have the details of all of these contact support services at the end of the podcast so people can revisit when they would like to. One of the apps that we also know about is the Hollie Guard app. After the tragic murder of Hollie Gazzard, she was murdered by an ex-boyfriend after she had endured really extensive harassment, but it's another sort of example of a really young life that's been taken due to harassment. Hollie Guard app was something that had been set up and it can be downloaded by anybody, and it really provides a great level of support. So again, I think there's lots of different ways listeners can reach out for support. Like you say, we would really encourage people to talk to the Police if they are able to. If they don't feel that they’re at a point to talk to the Police, there are other people that they can talk to and those support services, which I think is really important to know. Okay, so now we've looked at some of the support services that people can go to, we've mentioned a few times about injunctions and protection orders that people can have. Can you talk to us a little bit more about what some of those protection orders are? And perhaps how people can go about seeking those protection orders?
Jackie
Yeah, definitely. Well, as I say, they can be taken either civilly or through the Police. So don't feel that the Police is the only way in order to get one, but obviously the Police will do that on your behalf if you are going through the criminal proceedings. But all of our specialist support services are aware of how to obtain injunctions and orders so therefore they can assist you in that, so don't feel that it's too much to have to cope on your own. Rely on others to assist. And when you get those orders in place, they can have different types of conditions on them so it can stop people, preventing them either coming near your home or making contact with you, either by the person or through a third party. And so therefore, if that's what was causing you anguish, then there is a way of trying to prevent that, and obviously in law, if they then breach that injunction, then they can be prosecuted for that breach. And so it gives you a form of protection that you may not have had before. So I think it's important that people do look along the lines of an injunction and seeking injunctions against people who they think are harassing them. When it's happening and things are happening to you, one of the pieces of advice I would say is keep a log of what's happening, right from the start, whether you think they're small or whether you think they are significant, because when you then diarise them and you look at that dialogue, it creates a picture, and that can be used in evidence if you are then looking to seek to gain an injunction or you're looking for criminal proceedings. So it's important to try and keep a log of what's happening to you, to put the events into context so that you can use them as evidence if you if you later on need it.
Joy
That's brilliant
advice. I think, you know, we've given perhaps some tips or some really sound
pieces of advice for people while we've been talking over the past 20 minutes
or so, and I think keeping that diary or that log of what's happened and when
it's happened, is really, really key. Telling somebody and, you know, having
that trusted person in your life, whether that's a family member or a friend
reaching out and really just letting somebody else know what you're going
through, I think it's another great piece of advice we can give to people. Or
if you're concerned about someone and you can relate to a friend or family
member or work colleague that you think might be going through this, it doesn't
hurt to have a conversation with them and ask them if they're all right and ask
them if what they're going through, they feel comfortable with. Or they feel
there's any problem they would like to share with you, I think it's really
important now, more than ever, that we just sort of check in with each other
and check in with the people that we know and then making those calls to some
support services or the Police. It doesn't hurt to ask for help, does it at the
end of the day. We’d rather people contact these support services if they
didn't know what was going on and they want to seek some advice, rather than
just letting everything happen to them that's going on, that they're really
anxious over. Are any other pieces of advice that you think are really key,
Jackie, for somebody out there who is listening that they feel that they have
been affected by what they've heard today?
Jackie
No, I think it's just to reiterate basically what you've just said. It doesn't matter how small something may appear to you and how worried you are that people won't believe you or won't see it through your eyes. If it concerns you, then tell somebody, trust somebody. If it turns out that it wasn't that, then that's great. But it's better to tell somebody than not to.
Joy
Absolutely. Jackie its’ been really informative today. Thank you ever so much. And at the end of this podcast, we will re go over those telephone numbers and websites that we've mentioned for everybody to pick up. But thank you ever so much for your time and for sharing new experiences of stalking and harassment with us today, Jackie.
Jackie
Absolute pleasure.
If you would like to seek support for stalking or harassment, you can contact the National Stalking Helpline on 08088020300. There is also support available via the Paladin National Stalking Advocacy Service, who can be contacted on 02038664107. In addition to these support services, you can download the Hollie Guard Personal Safety app. Thank you for listening to Relationships Shouldn't Hurt. If you or someone you know has been affected by domestic abuse or the issues raised in this podcast, you can contact the 24-hour National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 08082000247. You can also find lots of information about domestic abuse on our website, and if you're in the Bedfordshire area, you can find local support services on the Get Help page of this website. If you are in immediate danger, please call the Police on 999.